The Behaviour Smart Podcast
Welcome to the Behaviour Smart Podcast – the show that explores the intersection of education, care, and behaviour management, with a side of thought-provoking conversations on a range of other topics.
Each episode dives into practical strategies and innovative solutions for improving behaviour in educational and care settings, while also offering insightful discussions on broader themes like personal growth, culture, and current events. Whether you're a teacher, care professional, parent, or simply curious about human behaviour, our podcast offers something for everyone.
Tune in for expert interviews, real-life stories, and fresh perspectives – all aimed at creating positive change in the way we understand and support behaviour.
The Behaviour Smart Podcast
Navigating the Path to Inclusion
What if fostering a sense of belonging in schools could transform lives? Join us as we uncover the powerful impact of inclusion and belonging in educational settings with the help of our insightful guest, Jack Pattinson. As an expert in promoting inclusion, Jack joins us alongside Matthew Rawcliffe, who courageously shares his personal journey of feeling excluded during his school years. Engaging in an essential conversation, we navigate the challenges schools face in creating truly inclusive environments and explore how building positive relationships can cultivate a culture of kindness where every student feels connected and valued. This episode promises to reveal the transformative effects that supportive environments can have on young minds.
Matthew opens up about his high school experiences, shedding light on the harsh realities of bullying and its effect on his mental health. Reflecting on the stark differences between his primary school and later education, he emphasizes the need for tailored approaches to student support. We delve into the complexities of addressing these issues, discussing how well-intentioned measures might inadvertently highlight differences. Through open dialogue and education on diversity, we aim to equip schools with the tools to nurture not just academic success but also prepare students for lifelong happiness and fulfillment. This episode is a must-listen for anyone passionate about creating inclusive educational spaces.
Welcome to the Behaviour Smart podcast brought to you by Behaviour Smart, the incident recording system that improves behaviour. In this episode, we will be talking to Jack Pattinson and Matthew Rawcliffe. Jack is a trainer, speaker and school support partner, specialising in inclusion, belonging and behaviour. Matthew is a person with lived experience who had a turbulent time in education and then found success doing a job he loves. Today, they are going to talk to us about how we can improve inclusion for children and young people across our services.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the second instalment of the Behaviour Smart Podcast. My name is Dean Cotton, I am a trainer, author and behaviour consultant and today I am very, very honoured to have on the Behaviour Smart Podcast Mr Jack Pattinson and Matthew Rawcliffe. So good evening you two, and welcome to the Behaviour Smart Podcast. How are you today? Oh God, all good. Thank you, good, good. So, jack, we'll start off with Jack and Matthew.
Speaker 3:Feel free to jump in, can you tell us a little bit about the work you do in promoting inclusion in our services. Yeah, so I've kind of come at where I am in my career now from sort of two angles where I empathise with kind of Matthew's experience because I had a pretty tricky time at school myself, some down to you know the kind of inclusion efforts that were made by my schools growing up, and some by just you know the way that my brain works during my time in education up, and some by just you know the way that my brain works during my time in education. So I left school kind of wanting to make damn sure that those experiences didn't happen for other kids and that's what. That's what brought me to working with young people. So I'm on a bit of a mission.
Speaker 3:Um, I've got a bit of an obsession with the word belonging. So a lot of the work that I do is around understanding how do we offer experiences to children, to young people, that that allows them to belong, you know, to really truly all the nitty-gritty to actually belong in the communities, the schools, the services that they're part of. And and what does that mean? You know, what does that do to the way we look at relationships and how we support behavior, how we promote inclusion. You know, how do we I call it a kind of culture of kindness how do we make that a real thing and not just something that that sounds really sort of airy-fairy and and kind of something we can work towards but never quite get to?
Speaker 2:I mean it's quite interesting because we, we all have this sort of need to belong and I don't know if, uh, if any of the listeners heard the previous podcast we did with Kieran. Kieran was a student that I supported who ended up, to a certain extent, committing offenses as a as a need to belong, so he wanted to belong to somebody and that happened to be sort of gangs of people. Um, and belonging is such a really it's an important word and it's really important that we get that right. But you're right in terms of how do we do that? How do we create those environments where people feel like they do belong and belong to the right groups? You know the right people. Matthew did in in your experiences when you were at in school. Did you feel like you belonged there?
Speaker 4:no, not one bit. I never felt like I was in the right group, never felt like I was. Yeah, it just didn't feel right.
Speaker 2:I missed school a lot due to just people not understanding me, and it was never taught how to understand people yeah, yeah, because it comes down to sort of I suppose it comes down to both positive relationships as well, isn't it? It's about that we've got positive relationships with people in the services that we're attending, so we need to. You know, we will get that need to be long if we've got positive relationships, surely? I don't know, what do you think about that jack?
Speaker 3:I think I totally get how much he feels, because I think it's. It's that idea, isn't it, that when we talk about inclusion, it's a big buzzword at the minute. There's lots of talk around how the offset framework in education is going to change to look at them, but it can often be a really big banner term, you know, and, and sometimes people like to say I'm a really inclusive person, but it's it's again challenging that question of what does that actually mean? You know, who is it that that experience impacts?
Speaker 3:Because for me, something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about after my time in school, I was so aware that everybody saw me as something different, you know, and I couldn't always quite pinpoint what that was, but it was. It was like those really organic moments that we hope for children and young people in school to happen, of those, you know, those natural selection of games that you know, play and break times in earlier years and and things like that, it always felt very, very different and very separate and very othered. And if that's not, if that's not something that's reflected on, if that's not something that's actively taught, you know, when we build those positive relationships, we understand how and why people are different and what that means to those relationships. And you know the answer there is it means nothing, yeah, but it doesn't. There is no noticeable. Oh my goodness, that's such a a stark difference. Why does it matter? Why is it going to be something we refer to, to talk about, to notice even?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean and that's what I was saying to you before we started recording that, like to me, somebody being different, we're all different. You know we're all different. There's nobody the same. We're all different. You know we're all different. There's nobody the same. We're all different. And and we all have different preferences.
Speaker 2:And you know, what I was saying to you before we started talking is that, like I, sometimes when I go to nando's, I'd rather have the spicy rice than the fries. It's just a different preference, it's my preference and that, in my eyes, should be I don't even, to a certain extent, not even celebrated, but just accepted. Really, that we just accept that everybody's different. I really don't understand. I see it a lot in my work, where people are treated differently because of different needs but different preferences. I don't really understand why, why, why there has to be any difference. And, yeah, and matthew, can I just ask you what? What would have made your because I'm quite interested in this idea of inclusion and and what do we mean by that? But what would have made your life in school better than it was?
Speaker 4:education, I think, is where it mainly should have been and it wasn't so. Everyone got taught about the like my community, everyone got taught it, but no one went into depth. Like, just because I like men doesn't mean that I like every man. Like, for some reason in my life there's always, if I've always been a friend with a man, it's always been like, oh, you might crack it, you might try it on with me, and it just wasn't taught. And then it doesn't help that the older generation are teaching their, their kids that it's wrong, it really so. Then that carries on and then yeah it. It's weird how not we're not educated on. Just because I like boys don't mean I like every boy and just because, she doesn't mean that she wants to be with every girl.
Speaker 2:Makes no sense like every boy doesn't want to be with every girl and every girl doesn't want to be with every boy. But there is that sort of thing, isn't there, where people say, oh no, like he's gay, then I better not go bet, yeah weird it's.
Speaker 3:It's interesting, isn't it? The way that it's positioned. I think sometimes when people like to talk about how inclusive they are or how inclusive their provision is, they can often reel off all the ways in which they think they're inclusive. But it's often those really subtle moments where like to use your example there, matthew that often when we talk about relationships, there's this kind of default idea around relationships, and when we talk about relationships that aren't heterosexual but that's a, that's a kind of separate conversation. You know, we'll get to that later, we will cover it.
Speaker 3:You know, we, we cover all relationships, but it's, it's this idea. You know, that subtle undertone of the fact that you know absolutely, and even the way that it's positioned in lesson content, in curriculum maps, it positions it as something slightly different. And that's the undercurrent that starts to build this idea that what lots of people, you know, if they are heterosexual, will experience is this idea of normal and everything else that we talk about is something different. You know, it's something less than and that less than I I find is a real trigger for me. You know, when I was watching coverage around, you know, same-sex marriage, referendums and things like that a big argument there was was that, by allowing you know non-heterosexual couples to marry, that it was devaluing marriage and that it was less than.
Speaker 2:But it's those teeny, tiny moments that plant those seeds. It is, I mean, it's so interesting. I mean, I suppose, really, you know, if we talk to schools and children's homes or whatever services and they're saying, yeah, we're inclusive, we think about, well, what do they mean by that? But, more importantly, what I'm trying to get out here is for people watching this podcast, for head teachers and heads of cares listening to this, or watching this podcast, um, what, what can they do? What? What should they be doing? Uh, to to address this issue that needs addressing, which shouldn't even really be an issue? Um, so in your sort of work, jackie, you're working with heads and people like that, to to address these issues. What, what would your advice be to them? So, it's.
Speaker 3:It's an absolute journey. I think you know when I reflect on my time at school and where we're at now. You know arguably some progress has been made. I'd love to say it was.
Speaker 3:It was you know much more advanced than it is but I think a lot about. I'm a bit of a language snob, um, and one of the things that used to really used to really keep me up at night when I was at school is the way that anytime relationships were talked about, when we talked about what you were going to do in life you'd get a job, you'd find a partner. You wouldn't find a partner, you'd find a wife, you know you'd, you'd settle down and you'd have children. It was really. It was really suggestive about the kind of experience that you'd have and that that it was a very heteronormative experience that was kind of referred to. So it was those tiny moments that reminded me, before I'd even considered coming out, that actually that this was going to be like a kind of hurdle to overcome. And actually, when we think about inclusion and how we forge those relationships with young people in our services, we talk about connection. We think about, you know, building moments of connection and those those subtle language changes. You know the way that we talk. Do we assume when somebody's talking about a significant other, do we say, oh so have you got yourself a boyfriend? Now, that might not be the kind of topic of conversation we're having between a practitioner and a young person in service. But it's that assumption Again, it's those moments and those are actually, upon a bit of reflection, quite easy changes to make. But we've got to be up for listening, you know. We've got to be reflective on the information that people who are living and breathing those experiences in our provisions every day are sharing with us and that what we're not doing is sort of.
Speaker 3:I remember I reported an issue of bullying and I was pretty worn down by this point and I was reassured again and again that it was going to be sorted out. There was no change in experience, apart from the Monday after the weekend. I went back into school and we were brought in on to what they called an emergency assembly. So assemblies at our secondary school only happened on wednesdays and fridays, but there was an emergency assembly on there on the monday and it was. It was an assembly all about how, if, if somebody's gay, that's, that's all right and and all I could feel.
Speaker 3:So there was this we had this, um, sort of staggered seating. It was very exciting because it came out electrically with a remote and we were all sat and I was sat at the top row. I used to like to tuck myself right out the way and all I could feel, gradually, one by one, in a bit of a domino effect, was people turning around going well. This is definitely something Jack said and I want to believe that there was maybe a good intention behind that, that kind of approach, but it was tokenistic it was. It was to say that something had been done, but it did nothing to change my experience. So it didn't. It didn't alter the way I felt about school, my peers myself, and I think that's the problem sometimes.
Speaker 2:Isn't it in in schools that we want to do something? But I don't think it was based on what you're just saying. I don't think it was something that the school you know they thought they were doing the right thing because they hadn't got the knowledge to sort of do the right thing. And that's one of the issues that we come across quite a lot in all different aspects of our work, come across quite a lot in all different aspects of our work, and and that and dealing with bullying that way could possibly lead to more bullying or likely to lead to more bullying, and and bullying because of something, because of who you are, is just I find it really bizarre. I'm quite interested in Matthew's views on, or more if it's okay to talk to you about this, yeah that's really um turbulent time for you at school, but what sort of experiences did you have at school in terms of um?
Speaker 4:yeah. So I got bullied probably majority all the way through high school. I was fine, primary no one because when you're young you don't really care who likes who and at that point I didn't even know I liked lads. But I think when you are older and you're starting to make relationships, you're like girls, boys like that sort of thing. That's when people realized that I wasn't interested in girls. I was more interested about what the boys were doing. And then it started going bad and I was bullied quite severely to the point where it affected my mental health quite bad. Um, but yeah, it was just awful and there was some things that school did help with. But it wasn't.
Speaker 2:It should have happened a long time ago and there were some things that they just didn't change so, when you say there's some things that school did help with, can you share with us some things that you feel that school did quite well?
Speaker 4:so I always had this one teacher that you'd see every day like a form shooter and she was just like. She knew what was happening. Everyone knew this is the problem. When I was off ill because I couldn't come to school, there was an email sent round saying he's not in school because he's being bullied and he doesn't, he can't come in. But whatever they was using to do, the register also said an email underneath the register on the whiteboard that said Matthew's absence, reason why. And everyone whose class I was in saw Matthew's reason for thingy. So everyone knew why I was off, um. And then when I came into school, they were just like what's wrong? What's wrong and that made it 10 times worse.
Speaker 4:But they did, they did help. Like I cannot fault the teachers one bit, but there is some that sort of I wouldn't say use the word encouraged, but they did nothing. So I would count that as encouragement, um, but like in terms of actually helping um, I in my last year of high school, instead of getting changed in the boys changing rooms, I got put in a visitor's one because every I used to dread PE with a passion because every time I'd get changed, people like don't look at me like they would always think that I found them attractive when in reality they were ugly as well, um, and so in my last year I got put into visitors changing rooms to help.
Speaker 4:that did help because made pe more bearable. But then people realised that I was going for 10 minutes and getting changed and coming back, so that made even more questions. But yeah, there were certain things that helped, certain things they didn't.
Speaker 2:It's very difficult, isn't it? Because I was thinking, as you were saying, that, that, you know, put in a different changing room, like, yeah, to a certain extent that's going to help, but to another extent it's going to say, no, matthew is different and yeah and it, and, and it's about individuals and what you want, isn't it as an individual?
Speaker 2:I think you know from what you were just saying there, matthew. I think one of the best advices, piece of advice, we could give to schools is like listen to your students and know them, because we're all different. You know, I've got three children and you don't manage or speak to one of them how you would speak to the other. They're all very, very different. I think this is one of the things that we have in schools and one of the things that's bearing in mind is like these try-and-catch-all behavior management systems that might work for some but not for other people, and it's same with it. So what, what works for you might not work with somebody else.
Speaker 2:If I were put in a changing room by myself, that would probably make me feel more isolated. Um, but it's a tough decision. It's difficult, isn, isn't it? Because some of our schools, there's so many children in there that we've got to try and help and support and everybody's different, is it? I mean, I don't know, jack, what would you say in terms of what Matthew was saying there about having a different changing room?
Speaker 3:Again, it's arguably hopefully well well intended, but you're right, it does. I always used to talk about this idea that sometimes the help that was offered to me often came from a good place, but it kind of shone a spotlight on me and actually for for some kids it made them more aware of me than they were before and actually I remember a lot as a as a kind of kid and young person just wanting to fly under the radar. So actually, you know, those strategies that are designed to help often you know, just because the intention is good doesn't mean the experience is also. Yeah, but it's hard in those moments where I think one of the one of the key messages that I'm spending a lot of time delivering to schools at the moment, when I've stopped picking at language and I've stopped reviewing curriculum maps and things like that is, I think, a lot, and I'm going to really terribly misquote here, but I think a lot about that, that quote of you know, when are we going to stop asking how children have fallen into the river before we walk upstream and stop them falling in? In that actually and I've probably done that quite a really disservice.
Speaker 3:But this idea that where, where do we buy into this issue? Where do we buy into this idea that it's absolutely acceptable for me to feel like I can comment on who you are? You know that I can go about looking to hurt you and with my you know behaviour hat on. I'm really aware that. You know, sometimes the behaviour that we and folk have had to endure is very communicative of their own experiences. Had to endure is very communicative of their own experiences. But what? What are the support strategies that exist from day dot in primary education, right the way from early years, where we're thinking about this, the, the way in which we develop relationships, the way in which we call that out? I remember being told all the time and I've probably said this to kids I've taught that you know, we want you to, to know wrong from right and to know to walk away. You know to know to come and tell us when something's wrong. But the social impact that that kind of experience has is huge, because that the the requirement for a system like that to exist successfully is that the first thing said when I say actually I don't think this is right, is that everybody's not jumping on me going no, jack's a grass now we need to treat him differently.
Speaker 3:I watched this really interesting lesson observation and it was filmed in an American provision where this member of staff was working with, I'm going to guess, sort of six, seven yearold children and young people, where she was talking about what she called the 30-second rule that if you felt inclined to talk about somebody, if it was something that they couldn't change in 30 seconds or less, then it wasn't for you to talk about, that, it wasn't for you to use against them or to chastise them with.
Speaker 3:You know, because I remember being told a lot about this idea that being gay or being not heterosexual is a choice, and if there was a choice to be made, oh my goodness, we wouldn't have gone for the difficult one. You know, it's that thing of actually I'd have loved for a quiet life where I could have just flown under the radar and just been left alone, but but this idea that I I can't change the way that I am, um, and we, we kind of create this version of ourselves and what I found as I've got older and started working with children is that then we start this process of kind of unpicking, this version we created for everybody else to just stay safe and to try and fly under the radar. And now I'm trying to figure out, or have figured out, actually who is it that I am and what is it that I like, and you know what kind of people do.
Speaker 3:I want to be friends with.
Speaker 2:I like, and you know what kind of people do I want to be friends with um. I suppose it's a sort of two main things that we need to be thinking about doing in in education and sort of educating people from a very, very early age. I'm talking, you know, nursery, that everybody's different and that's what makes life so wonderful. And also we're thinking about um. I've lost what I was going to say there. I had something really cool to say but it's just gone. But making you know that and but getting when, when there are issues where where people are sort of isolated, that we support them by talking to them and listening to them and finding out what they want us to do, because, at the end of the day, education schools is not just about what GCSEs you got. It's about education. It's about educating people about life, to give them everything that they need to move on and be happy.
Speaker 2:And so I think you know I was interested in what you were saying jack about language, because we all do that sometimes, you know we all say things that we go oh, actually that's not quite right, but there's education around that isn't there as well around. You know we don't say things to to upset people. You know we, if we're talking about you know, I think about, like my, my mum and dad, and the things that they say, because they are quite old fashioned and sometimes they might say things that you think, oh, mum, you can't say that these days. You know, but they're not nasty people, they just they're good people. People. They're very, very good people that have just added different life experiences and education. So maybe if we could address that small language, because that small language does make a difference, and educate people from a very, very early age about everybody being different, then that I that sounds like a good plan.
Speaker 3:I mean, I don't know you got anything to add to that I think that where it starts is being willing to have the conversation. I think we see so many people come at it from a different place where, again, really well intended people are so anxious about saying the wrong thing that they don't say anything at all. Um, and for lots of people, um, I are, you know, in the courses that I deliver, I will openly share with people that I'm more than up for those conversations.
Speaker 3:You know I I have a really lovely um friend uh who is trans and we've worked together quite a bit and they'll openly share that. They're really happy with the right kind of you know, permission requested to have those conversations, because if we don't have those conversations, if we don't talk about it, nothing changes. But being willing to reflect on the idea that maybe I got that wrong it doesn't mean I'm a terrible person, it doesn't mean I went out of my way to hurt that person. But if I can offer them a different experience where I don't make them feel like that, why wouldn't I? You?
Speaker 3:know, why wouldn't I do that?
Speaker 2:absolutely, and I think you know that it's a great conversation and just by people listening to this podcast, hopefully it'll just start them thinking about how we can support people and include people, irrespective of their gender or their sexuality, or whether they like rice or mashed potatoes it doesn't really matter, does it? What we do with all our guests on the Behaviour Smart podcast, we ask them to share with us either their most embarrassing moment or their claim to fame. So I think we'll start with you, jack.
Speaker 2:Your most embarrassing moment or your claim to fame, whichever think, we'll start with you. Jack uh, your most embarrassing moment, or your claim to fame, whichever one you want to share I'm going to go with claim to fame.
Speaker 3:um, I went to university in london. Um, I was desperate for something new and a kind of new place in a new environment, and I somehow made friends with people that ran circles in the events industry and, for some unknown reason, I got invited to the world premiere in Leicester Square of the Minions movie. I got there late, in true Jack style. I turned up accidentally late and I got shoved in this sort of side door and all I could think about after a wobbly day was where I could get a drink. I went to the bar and there was a lady stood there who said, oh, my goodness, get me a drink before this thing starts. And I thought, oh, I share that feeling. And I turned around and it was Sandra Bullock and she handed me her champagne before she took her own.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, so you had champagne with Sandra Bullock at the Minions movie Wonderful.
Speaker 4:Oh wow, so you had champagne with Sandra Bullock at the Minions movie. Wonderful, and Matthew, can you beat that with either your claim to fame or your most embarrassing moment? I just feel like my life's an embarrassing moment. Um, I can only think of one, and it was when I fell down the flight of stars in a nightclub. But I got pushed and I thought you're not making me fall, so I just grabbed on and we fell down the flight of stars.
Speaker 2:Brilliant. Maybe you had a drink.
Speaker 4:I had a lot of drink.
Speaker 2:I thought you might have. Okay. Thanks a lot, you two, for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1:This was the Behaviour Smart podcast brought to you by Behaviour Smart, the incident recording system that improves behaviour. Join us next time and thanks for listening, thank you.